Curse

Grey Hawthorne · Nov 14, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

simple question. YMLaD or Brawling Headbutt on a D-slasher build?

I like YMLaD for the instant ranged KD and the crip effect. the downside is that it has an insane energy cost and recharge time.

Brawling headbutt is great because it's adr based and works great with the D-slash--brawling headbutt--steelfang slash combo when FGJ! wears off. The downside is that it's not instant, ranged, and that the adr price is a bit high imo.

zwei2stein · Nov 14, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey Hawthorne

simple question. YMLaD or Brawling Headbutt on a D-slasher build?

I like YMLaD for the instant ranged KD and the crip effect. the downside is that it has an insane energy cost and recharge time.

Brawling headbutt is great because it's adr based and works great with the D-slash--brawling headbutt--steelfang slash combo when FGJ! wears off. The downside is that it's not instant, ranged, and that the adr price is a bit high imo.

Brawling/SF/SD can KDlock enemy and help keep up SY. YMLAD can't ...

YMLAD simply does not work on warrior.

Shayne Hawke · Nov 14, 2009, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Brawling Headbutt is the obvious choice.

kupp · Nov 14, 2009, 08:36 PM // 20:36

^

My words exactly.

Turk The Legendary · Nov 14, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

wait what are u serious? How is this even in question... bh>ymlad for d-slash build...

Braxton619 · Nov 14, 2009, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Brawling Headbutt... with this skill you can perma kd-lock

+1

Captain Bulldozer · Nov 14, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Why take one or the other, when you can take both?

zelgadissan · Nov 14, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Why take one or the other, when you can take both?

Because Save Yourselves, Whirlwind Attack, and Asuran Scan are also PvE skills, and you have to bring at least two of those.

Brawling Headbutt. Without question.

**Marty Silverblade** · Nov 14, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

There isn't anything wrong with YMLAD, it's just DSlash basically makes BH free with no recharge. Why would you need a ranged KD anyway, especially over this?

Lifestyle · Nov 14, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Hmm. Maybe to stop kiting?

Reverend Dr · Nov 14, 2009, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Brawling headbutt is a skill that reduces DPS and slows adrenaline flow. Why everyone has such a raging hard on for it is beyond me.

If you need to KD lock a group, then run earthshaker + crude + whirlwind, otherwise trying to KD lock with headbutt and dslash is going to hurt your DPS and force more non-necessary auto attacks to fill adrenaline.

Captain Bulldozer · Nov 14, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Because Save Yourselves, Whirlwind Attack, and Asuran Scan are also PvE skills, and you have to bring at least two of those.

Brawling Headbutt. Without question.

Meh... none of those skills is particularly essential. Don't get me wrong, they're ALL fine choices, but the idea that at least two of them needing to be on a warrior bar to insure success is closed minded and unnecessarily limiting.

In fairness, brawling headbutt is probably a better option for a warrior in general, but there are some situations where a ranged KD can be really handy, especially with groups that you probably don't want to engage up close and personally (such as Rotscale's mob for example). You can use it BEFORE having to build adrenaline, and as its a shout it can't be interrupted. PvE foes aren't at all likely to try and e-denial a warrior directly, but they will definitely try to adren-deny you.

Bobby2 · Nov 15, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

YMLAD is 10 energy. DSlash won't get nearly as much use out of it as, say, WE Scythe.

Terek Zelta · Nov 15, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Brawling Headbutt is the clear winner. It synergizes better with Dragon Slash, and also synergizes well with Steelfang Slash. The adrenaline cost, and the adrenaline loss from it being a touch skill, are still perfectly manageable with the aforementioned skills. It lowers your DPS, but I still get higher DPS than most other warrior bars, while shutting down any enemy I want with basically infinite adrenaline gain, as long as they can be KDed. When you need the DPS, you just don't use it. That simple. You shouldn't be KD-locking every enemy you fight anyway; use it sparingly and exercise self-control.

With the Dragon Slash bar, Brawling Headbutt is KD on demand. Makes Flail much more manageable as well.

What I've started doing with my Dragon Slash bars is going /mo secondary and speccing 9 points into Smiting Prayers for Strength of Honor when I'm in a pug. This actually started off as a joke, but to my chagrin, it works, and it works really~ well. Well enough that I can use Enraging Charge and FGJ on recharge without energy problems. Works a lot better for me than Enduring Harmony, since I rarely need 10 more seconds of FGJ, and the Brawling -> Steelfang combo keeps me up and running with very good DPS anyway. Strength of Honor is the new Mending.

draxynnic · Nov 15, 2009, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Brawling headbutt is a skill that reduces DPS and slows adrenaline flow. Why everyone has such a raging hard on for it is beyond me.

If you need to KD lock a group, then run earthshaker + crude + whirlwind, otherwise trying to KD lock with headbutt and dslash is going to hurt your DPS and force more non-necessary auto attacks to fill adrenaline.

While this is 100% true, it misses a couple of important points:

1) BH/DS is better at KDlocking a single target.

2) BH/DS still does higher DPS than the Earthshaker build (at least if the enemy isn't tightly clumped)

3) BH/DS reverts easily to pure DS-spamming if the KD-lock is not required.

Now, YMLAD still has its advantages, but of the two, in a DS build I'd be inclined to take advantage of the massive amounts of adrenaline that build has. On the face of things, YMLAD probably disrupts the standard DS-spamming build less (since most DS-builds don't have high energy requirements), but on the other hand YMLAD won't let you knocklock an enemy.

_Nihilist_ · Nov 16, 2009, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Brawling Headbutt is used because it helps maintain the Adrenaline for Dragon Slash when "FGJ!" isn't up. If you don't want to go W/P for Enduring Harmony, you need Brawling Headbutt > Steelfang Slash to keep the Adrenaline engine going, which it does nicely.

Unless you're running a Warrior's Endurance build, you're not going to have the energy to use "YMLaD!" on demand, whereas with a DSlash bar you'll have more than enough Adrenaline to use BH whenever you want.

As far as Reverend Dr's point goes, if you don't have to use Brawling Headbutt, your DPS will be higher, but if you have to have KD, BH is there, along with Steelfang to regain the necessary Adrenaline to start DSlashing again. The only time BH should be used outside of a priority KD is when "FGJ!" is down so that you can maintain your Adrenaline flow.

draxynnic · Nov 16, 2009, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Actually, I've largely stopped using Steelfang since it got the recharge, nor do I go W/P for Enduring Harmony - I find there are often better uses for skill slots (Whirlwind serves as a good secondary adrenaline engine when you have large groups, Lion's Comfort seems to be at least as reliable at Steelfang at adrenaline gain and will self-heal as a bonus, and, of course, there's SY!, Flail, Enraging, and FGJ!). With this being the case, I still carry Brawling for the utility of on-demand knockdowns and for the ability to knocklock a priority foe if that seems to be more important than brute DPS (a decision that depends on the enemy - hardmode healers and nukers primarily, but it's a case-by-case decision).

Terek Zelta · Nov 16, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

I agree about Enduring Harmony. It was a good idea on paper, but in practice, not only do you not need it, but warriors shouldn't have to stop to cast anything right before a fight, especially in pugs when that sin who thinks he has 120 AR runs ahead of you and gets himself killed because he severely overestimated Critical Defenses. Warriors should rely on fire-and-forget buffs that allow us to keep moving, of which FGJ and Enraging Charge are prime examples. On the other hand, maybe I'm just really impatient.

Lion's Comfort will absolutely kill your DPS when used with Dragon Slash, though. Having to stop to use it means you're not killing stuff, and if you're not killing stuff you may as well be dead. I don't like bringing it with pressure builds for adrenaline management, I think it's more of a spike thing: use it, Eviscerate -> Body Blow, and you're good. They both have a recharge, so you're not really gaining anything - Steelfang only adds two strikes of adrenaline and is an attack in itself. Only thing with Steelfang is that you have to autoattack a couple times before you Dragon Slash again so that it gets the adrenaline, but that's no big deal.

Whirlwind Attack is good. I'm still trying to figure out what the best general Dragon Slash bar is. So far I've come up with...

Dragon Slash
SY
Brawling Headbutt
Steelfang Slash
For Great Justice!
Flail
Enraging Charge
Strength of Honor (9 in Smiting Prayers)

So far, I've been able to use this bar almost everywhere. Strength of Honor is just... awesome. It's better if you have someone else cast it on you, but if no one's around to do it, carry a zealous sword in an alternate weapon slot and it makes for an excellent DPS boost. Cast it once and forget about it, just the way I like it, unless it gets stripped, but that usually won't matter, since the build doesn't rely on it.

I like how this thread is making people think outside the box. YMLaD does have its uses on a Dragon Slash bar in some cases (Bison Tournament, or when you need to keep certain enemies crippled and have no other means of doing it, etc.), but I wouldn't use it as part of the general build.

Reverend Dr · Nov 16, 2009, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nihilist_

DSlash bar you'll have more than enough Adrenaline to use BH whenever you want.

Headbutt is a non-attack adrenal skill. Unlike an adrenal attack skill, it does not replenish the adrenaline lost. Every time you use it, it disrupts your adrenaline flow. It doesn't matter how much extra adrenaline you get from dragonslash, or for great justice, or enraging charge, or mark of fury, or anthem of fury, or dark fury you are going to be 1 strike away from using any other adrenal skills and you are going to be forced to throw out a regular auto attack.

For as adrenaline gain heavy the d-slash build is, the way most people play it, it ends up with tons of regular auto-attacks when there is just no reason for that.

What is the reason for the knocklock, its got to have a reason since it lowers damage?

Is it to keep bosses KD? Get a better team, two decent monks (mhenlo and lina) can keep your team up against any boss long enough for a decent team (Olias, Masters, Livia) to kill that boss.

What about to keep enemies in place for flail? Flail is a bad skill. As I have just said, it is a non-attack adrenal skill which means that using it forces a regular auto attack and slows adrenaline gain for Dslash and SY. Now the whole point of an IAS is to increase damage, if my IAS forces me to lower my damage what is the point?

What about Steelfang? The combo is Brawling -> auto attack -> steelfang, not brawling -> steelfang. This means that you have to be in IAS else you do not have time to get the conditional from steelfang. If your IAS is flail, then you are going to have to be in flail before using brawling, which makes the combo flail -> auto attack -> brawling -> auto attack -> steelfang, which is a lot less appealing.

Really if you drop all of the superfluous adrenal skills (flail and BH) then you will find that you have plenty of adrenaline to keep up SY with just dragonslash. I guess that is the root of the issue here. If I can keep the required efficiency with just dragonslash and SY, why do I need to clutter up my bar with skills to increase adrenaline, especially when that kind of play forces lower damage and more auto attacks?

EDIT: Lion's Comfort: This is a terrible skill, never use it. Strictly speaking the skill gains adrenaline, but using the skill has no positive effect on overall adrenaline gain. Using the skill forces a loss of one strike from every other adrenal skill, the gain of 2 adrenaline is now a gain of only 1 adrenaline. In the time that you used the skill you could have made an attack, the gain of 1 adrenaline is now a net gain of 0 adrenaline. Lion's Comfort gives no adrenal advantage over regular attacking, and at least regular attacks do damage (protip: as a warrior do damage to kill your enemies).

Grey Hawthorne · Nov 17, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

I usually try and post things that get people thinking at least. Some of the time it's mere conjecture that I post to help other warriors...a lot of it is to help me

I agree about Lions comfort, it's not even that decent of a self heal. In my opinion you could switch it out for something far more useful and learn to rely on your monk friends (that's their job...they chose that class for a reason) whilst you do epic damage.

It makes me happy to at least see a few people are taking the thread seriously instead of just yelling: u r teh noob! How is that even a question? or some such nonsense.

I've kept YMLaD on my bar for gimmick builds to help fight in the norn fighting tournament and to fight the griffon in the cold as ice quest. brawling headbutt is one I used to use on my bar. along with steelfang. but I noticed the inefficiencies that the good Dr. mentioned. and if your party is in line most everything will die before you even need to resort to using the brawling+steelfang combo. unless it's in HM or a particularly tough boss, of course.

I made a different thread about flail and any other ias abilities in a different thread. though my personal choice is to use rush/frenzy for my hb build, drunken master, or flail for my d-slash, and flail for sure with my earthshaker build. I'm not much into axes...so that's why I left them out.

I haven't tried the wammo build terek proposed so I have no opinion to offer.